A response to “Which is Stronger, Manfluence or Godfluence?”
A recent pair of articles I ran across on another blogger’s site—Parallel Divergence—set me thinking about the question of God. Is there a God, or did man just make him up? Which God is the real one? Here are some thoughts I’ve gathered over the years.
To even ask the question about whether there is a God or not means that there is something or someONE beyond mankind and his tiny frame of existence. We can’t help but look at the stars and think that there must be more to life than the humdrum nature of things; the Hubble Telescope image serves to broaden, though not entirely delineate, the vastness of it all. And how many poems have been written on the subject of life’s fleeting nature and the desire to live forever? Shakespeare’s Sonnet 18, to quote just one of the many: (lines 11-14)
“Nor shall death brag thou wander’st in his shade,
When in eternal lines to time thou grow’st;
So long as men can breathe, or eyes can see,
So long lives this, and this gives life to thee.”
To long for something outside ourselves and better than ourselves, to long for eternity, means that we humans, be we men or women, are not the end-all and be-all of everything. To live as though we are produces (and has produced since the beginning of time) nothing but misery and confusion. [Like another blogger said, “Manfluence” is responsible for the world’s heartache.] Then, when we are in the middle of the trouble and turmoil that humans have created, we shake our fists at “Heaven” and wonder how a good and loving God could allow something so horrible. Yet the very notion that God might have the right to interfere in our lives disturbs us. So basically, if there is a God, we want Him to interfere in everyone else’s lives, just not ours. And we only want Him to do the jobs that are too big for us to do on our own—like stop earthquakes and prevent attacks from rabid, man-eating lions. Maybe we need superheroes. But read any comic book today or look at the stories of the Greek gods and goddesses, and you see that superheroes have the same problems we do, just on a grander scale: they’re too human to help us with the things that really tear our world apart—“manfluence.” The gods and goddesses of Greek and Roman myth acted like overgrown humans, leaving mere mortals to suffer from their poor decisions.
It’s really our own human nature, our own selfishness, that tears our world apart, whether on a small scale—like the words we say to hurt those nearest and dearest to us—or on a grand scale—like the destruction wreaked by Hitler on the Jewish people. Therefore the “just-follow-your-heart” philosophy that sounds so good on the Disney channel does not work in real life. Many times, following our hearts leads to pain in our lives or in the lives of others. Believing in myself brings no hope at all; there has to be something bigger than me and better than me that makes sense of life and saves me from myself.
This hope is what makes the Bible so unique. It is different from all other sacred writings in four ways:
~ First, it was written by God through human mouthpieces: no one man can take credit for the things that its pages contain and no one man (besides Jesus, the God-man—God Himself Who became human, too, to show us what God is like up-close-and-personal) can take credit for it. The events it contains and the prophecies that were fulfilled over the thousands of years between its first book and its last book could not have been orchestrated by just one person, unless that person was powerful enough to control time and space without violating any man’s free will.
~ Second, the stories it tells do not paint people in the light that humans usually paint themselves: it tells of human failings and shortcomings—even the great heroes whose lives it chronicles did wrong things that hurt those around them and had far-reaching results. Humans tend to gloss over those things when they write. Only Jesus Christ is different because He is God and is not subject to human sins; He lived for 33 years on earth and never sinned. Even those who say He is not God cannot point a finger at Him for wrongdoing—even Islam looks to Him as a good man and a great prophet (though not as great as Mohammed).
~ Third, only the Bible offers a solution for humanity’s problems that is outside of man himself. All other religions either offer lists of rules to curb humanity’s baser passions or try to justify those baser passions by saying that they are acceptable no matter who they hurt. Neither way actually deals with the problem of “manfluence.” Only the Bible offers a solution that really works. Man-made religions exploit man for the use of other men; only God in the person of Jesus Christ gives unconditionally and totally.
~ Finally, the Bible is the only book that tells mankind how to have fellowship with the God that is big enough to create a universe that will stimulate our minds and make us wonder about things outside ourselves (We would not be content with a tiny universe any more than we are content with our tiny lives). Thousands of people have experienced the life-giving power that God offers through the gift of Himself. God does not just give us a list of rules to make us fit for Heaven; instead, He shows us how all of our attempts to be good enough fall short of our goal of reaching Him, and then He makes a way for us to reach Him by giving of Himself. He makes it easy enough for anyone, be they small or great, to contact Him and know Him. And He does the work for us that we cannot do—He makes us whole inside and makes our hearts new.
This is the message of the Bible; this is a hope that is not about man-made religion; this is bigger and more mind-boggling than the images from the Hubble Telescope, awesome though those images are. We will understand the mysteries of the universe much sooner than we will grasp the love of God. Just as the universe is bigger than the earth, God Himself is bigger than mankind’s imagination. In fact, He said as much: “For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.” Isaiah 55:9 We can’t be content with a God we can completely understand any more than we can be content with a universe painted on the ceiling. We don’t need a man-made God; we were made for more than that.

18 comments
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October 10, 2009 at 7:44 pm
Charles E. Screwes
The fact (or truth) is God is Life, Life is God. It is that simple. Until humanity rises to the level of comprehension to understand this fundamental concept of Life, genocidal and every other horrible and evil act upon mankind will continue. In life and death, individuals are God’s brain cells. Remember that with each one buried.
Humanity invented the idea of “God,” initially. to explain that inner voice produced by thought; thinking. Humanity gave God life. God can be found in every nation upon this planet. Now it is our responsibility to attend to his welfare
The message has been delivered upon this media.
October 12, 2009 at 2:55 pm
joyousthirst
Charles, thank you for your response to this post–both thoughtful and thought-provoking. I have heard this view of God before, and it certainly seems like it would solve the problems of humanity if we could learn to look at each other as part of God. After all, who wants to harm oneself? Viewing ourselves as interconnected does seems like it would eventually weed out those nastier things we don’t like about ourselves.
But again we are left with humanity as the highest thing to reverence. And humanity at its best falls short of what we hunger for in our lives. Good people still make mistakes. Good people still hurt others. Good people still get hurt. When we are honest with ourselves, we see that we really long for the God of the Bible who is totally good through and through and is holy–completely “other” than His creation.
Only admitting these truths (the twin truths of Who He is and of what we really are compared with Him) can start us on the path to freedom and joy regardless of the circumstances around us. It’s only the start. But it IS the beginning. No other door opens onto the Answer to Life and Humanity’s problems. Jesus Christ put it this way–”I am the way, the truth, and the life. No man cometh unto the Father but by Me.”
October 19, 2009 at 5:38 am
Charles E. Screwes
It is refresing to know that there are other enlightened people on the planet. We are a tiny group. However, you seem to still have doubt. In time, that doubt will dissipate completely and you will become confident in the truth that We (humanity) are god. United and focused upon the real issues in the world, we can accomplish miracle resolutions.
It has taken me nearly 60 years to reach the level of confidence to liberate myself of the myth of “God.” Afterall, the myth was pounded into my head throughout childhood and most of my adulthood. It is a brainwashing that is hard to release.
To put “the fear of God” in one creates a huge deficiency in his/her mentality. The fragile mind labors much too hard to avoid offending this “omnipotent being” to focus upon life’s realities.
Consider, if there were an omnipotent being who loves us, would he/she allow so much suffering of the innocent? No, only unenlightened religous humans are capable of such dastardly conduct. Furthermore, the one God in his jealousy (from the Holy Bible) would never allow the worship of other gods i.e. Bhudda, Allah, Zeus, etc.
Since time immemorial, gods have played a starring role in the dominiom of the masses through scare tactics about the revenge of the gods.. Time has come for humanty to give up the myth of “God” and focus on the realities in life.
November 2, 2009 at 6:38 pm
Dana
I wholeheartedly agree with Charles that man created God in order to explain all those things which he does not, or cannot understand. I also think that smarter and greedier people took advantage of the naiveity of innocence and ignorance and dictated false answers to those unanswerable questions in order to have control. In our thirst for anwers, we have been duped! We have been led to believe falsities! How dare them try to rationalize myth!
I do see God every day however. I see (him/her/it) in the smile of a child or the falling of a leaf. I see God in the eyes of the wise and in the blossom of the rose. In my mind, all things come together as one to represent God. God is existence itself.
Unfortunately, in order to justfy mankind’s mad behaviour I also find myself leaning a bit toward Taoist philosophy which calls for all things in balance. Evil must be offset by good and happy must be offset by sad.
It is a cruel trick to play on folks to tell them that there is life after death. The only life after death is memories, accomplishments that have benefit, and children. Perhaps there is some energy that remains and is transformed in some way i.e. a soul. maybe we are re-incarnated! Unfortunately with my luck I will come back as a preacher
God bless you all whoever he may be!
November 17, 2009 at 2:45 pm
joyousthirst
wow, Charles! Your journey to the mindset you describe has been a long one! Thank you for sharing some of it in response to this post!
I am curious to know whether your liberation from the “God-myth” has freed you from the problems of humanity in your own life. Do you find yourself to be a truly merciful and loving god in your own realm of influence? Or do you still, when you look at yourself on the inside and examine your motives, find yourself to be selfish, proud, greedy, angry, lustful, or any of the other vices that plague humanity and enable us to make it a living hell for one another? I realize that’s a rather personal question, but this question is an important one in the discussion of “manfluence versus Godfluence.” Also, how do you determine whether your actions are right or wrong? Seems to me that, while freedom from the idea of a God to fear would bring no fear of reprisal from anyone higher than oneself, the problems created by such vices would still remain and would still affect the lives of those in both one’s immediate sphere of influence and in the broader sphere of all humanity since our actions ripple outward like the ripples on the surface of a pond.
November 17, 2009 at 2:42 pm
Harrison Beckmann
If man created God, then who gave Him the intelligent imagination to do so? I see no monkeys worshiping God.
December 4, 2009 at 1:05 am
Charles E. Screwes
Please understand, I do not deny the existence of an omnipotent presence. that presence, though, is life. You may call it God or whatever you will. I believe the vast majority of the bible stories are properly called stories.
November 17, 2009 at 2:55 pm
joyousthirst
Dana,
something you said about memories reminded me of a line from Mark Antony’s speech in JULIUS CAESAR by William Shakespeare:
“The evil that men do lives after them,
The good is oft interred with their bones,
So let it be with Caesar”
Is it not true that the evil memories of people often live longer than the good that they do? The effects of their actions certainly last far longer than their lives themselves.
Thank you for adding your thoughts to this conversation!
December 4, 2009 at 12:47 am
Charles E. Screwes
Oh God, (pun intended)no, I have serious doubt that the problems created and propagated by man will survive my short lifespan. I simply live out the day and look forward to next. The most significant change in my life has been the absence of the “fear of God.” I was indoctrinated with that threat since early childhood. Even as a child, I would ask questions about “God” that the elders discouraged.
Aparently, I did not clearly explain the concept of “God” I have come to accept. I apologize for that. God is the life in every living thing. Humanity, though, is connected or linked by a special code, human DNA.
At this stage in the evolution of humanity not much has been discovered about DNA beyond identification. I would not be surprised if there were a plethora of undiscovered information to be gleaned from DNA that, perhaps, will elevate mankind to a heavenly level of existence. It is that utopian existence that headlines my wish list. People living together in total harmony, no more wars, starvation, etc.
It is not my purpose to be either above or below anyone. Such desires are sought in the world of believers. In order for one to be above another represents control. Reasonable beings control themselves, a difficult enough task in itself. If I could wave my hand and make it so, I would awaken the world and cause each and every person to be responsible to himself/herself for their actions.
November 17, 2009 at 3:09 pm
Jason Wall
just wanted to point out that just because we can imagine something does not prove its existence. that we can think of God, or desire someething outside our selves, is not in itself proof of His existence.
December 4, 2009 at 11:34 am
Charles E. Screwes
Exactly, that is just the thinking that led me to conclude “God is man-made. The human imagination can contrive amazing visions. It is that characteristic of humans that set us apart from the rest of the animal kingdom. It is that ability that has led man to this very point in timeand space. If we can imagine it, history provides proof that we eventually accomplish it.
It was the collective imagination of man that landed us on the moon and launched the Hubble telescope into the far reaches of outerspace, amazing feats of collective human efficiency. Human collaboration, NOT Divinity, account for these miraculous accomplishments.
The pyramids, mind-boggling architectural achievements, also, provide visible evidence of man’s collective efforts. The Ancients did not lack intelligence. They served and used many gods to control the masses. Then, enter the ONE god creation of the down trodden class in opposition to the many. The idea flourished. Here we are now worshipping the several single God and constantly battling over which is real.
God is an idea so deeply embedded in the fabric of humanity as to create a seemingly unbreachable mental block. Man customarily evokes his Deity before any major endeavor and gives credit to “God” only if victory is achieved. Who collects credit for defeat?
December 8, 2009 at 2:30 pm
Jason Wall
“If we can imagine it, history provides proof that we eventually accomplish it.”
That’s probably not true, at least not completely. Your point has some merit in that there has been much that is fantastic that we have imagined as a race and have gone on to accomplish. It is probably also true that there were and are many things imagined and yet still unattained.
I should also point out that that isn’t a proof for God’s non existence either. That we can imagine God isn’t proof that God is a figment of our imagination. It is entirely possible that we think of God because He exists and we were in fact created by Him for the purpose of knowing Him, and thus were designed with that capacity and desire. We think about food because we need it, and our bodies are of such a design that we desire and have the capacity to consume it. That we can imagine food doesn’t mean food is a figment of our imagination.
somewhat off topic, it occurs to me that, frequently, with evolution, we reason backwards from the existence of some unique and special trait to a set of circumstances that must have led us there. You could argue in the same manner that the fact that man craves and seeks and has his brain hardwired for spirituality means that there is something out there designed to fulfill it. and that should make you wonder.
December 9, 2009 at 8:20 pm
Charles E. Screwes
…yet still unattained.
The key word is yet.
In 1492, open heart surgery, the splitting of the atom, putting man on the moon, decoding the DNA string, satellite communications, etc., were all ideas far beyond the reaches of man’s limited imagination, then. Today, these things are all commonplace. Humanity has moved mountains, spanned oceans and erected universites since our meager beginnings. Man is a natural born pioneer driven to discover the unknown.
Man has sought relentlessly the meaning of life, (that elusive mythical philosopher’s stone)forever. In some cases, obviousness eludes perception, the inability to see the forest for all the trees. He is oblivious to the fact that the purpose of life is to live; to discover progressively those vast uncharted regions of the human mentality while evolving from one generation to the next. (Spanning the generation gap would be a more worthy endeavor than seeking the meaning of life.)
Humanity has developed a great mental block (God). It impedes mental evolvement to a significant degree. Furthermore, the acceptance of a “Supreme Being” as Creator of the universe and all things within and without, is a concept born of deficient logic but vivid imagination.
I accept the premise that Life is God and vice versa without further explanation. That “God” is life itself is an epiphany that came to me many years ago, for reasons I did not understand, then. Initially, it was a frightful vision because of the sacrilegious implications. The idea dwelled in my mind despite my prayers (to God) for a definitive answer. At last, reason took control and logic won the ceaseless debate.
Over the course of history, God has been used as justification for all sorts of wickedness and unscrupulous behavior by the Church and government alike. Countless lives have been terminated in the name of God. How different would the world be if humanity had worshipped Life instead?
Man’s brain is not hard-wired for spirituality; it has been systematically programmed by centuries of subtle indoctrination. Obviously, if the brain was hard-wired, Sunday school, preachers and teachings from the “Holy Bible” would be unnecessary tools of indoctrination. Children would be natural-born holy rollers.
God is imaginery. The “God(s)” that believers worship is always a masculine image, referenced as he(in all religions), yet, no one (other than Moses) has ever seen “Him.” Additionally, He is bigoted toward the female sex. By contrast, Life is real and unbiased; all may bear witness to its reality.
March 8, 2010 at 10:14 pm
joyousthirst
hello, Charles =) I’m sorry that I haven’t been able to sit down and reply to the comments you have left yet–it’s been a very long time, I know! Thank you for your patience. Please know that I did read them and do mean to reply when I have the time to do so! I haven’t been ignoring them, just been unable to be on the computer much lately.
March 8, 2010 at 10:14 pm
joyousthirst
Jason, too!
March 14, 2010 at 8:18 pm
joyousthirst
Charles, I have just been rereading the history of Moses in the Biblical book of Exodus. I confess that I fail to see the God you have described. I see a Moses who was, as you yourself have said you were, afraid of God. I also see this man Moses later in life no longer afraid of God as he had been. And I can see what brought about the change, too. Perhaps you will see the change if you reread the book of Exodus for yourself, not relying on the teachers of your youth and what they may or may not have told you about the God the Bible reveals.
I no longer fear God, either. But it is because I have come to know Him. He is a God I never in my wildest imaginings would have or could have created. He is a person, not an impartial and unfeeling force. He has already written the answers to the questions we seek the answers for–the deep ones dealing with the soul–in His Word. Perhaps you will find the answers to your questions by looking for the answers in the right place. The question of the meaning of life is one that haunts all mankind–especially when he finds himself facing death and eternity–perhaps it is not a question to be ignored but to be faced.
Your comments have greatly stimulated my thoughts, and I may write more on them in another post sometime; however, I think you will understand where I am coming from more clearly if you read what I have read, the description that God gave of Himself. God knew that we didn’t understand Him very well at all, so He gave us His Son Jesus Christ so we could SEE what He was like. If you want to know the love that has cast out MY fear of Him, I suggest you begin in the book of John, written by a close friend of Jesus’ when He was on this earth.
If you have any questions as you read, I will be glad to try to address them as best I can.
Happy reading!
January 13, 2011 at 5:38 pm
asma
Hi, It’s a simple question and someone on umuslim.com, muslim social network, answer it properly click on
http://umuslim.com/links/who-created-god-dr-zakir-naik-answers-peacetv
to find the answer of this riddle.
January 15, 2011 at 10:25 pm
joyousthirst
Thank you for submitting that link, asma =) His answer was an interesting way of answering the question. He does have a good point that God is uncreated. It is interesting as well how the question of His origin resurfaces so often. I think it is part of our natural curiosity.
I am glad that God doesn’t mind us asking questions. and that He so patiently answers them for us in the Bible and in the world around us.